OK, real estate shoppers-- some important factors to take into account when you're choosing a neighborhood-- price, how long your commute will be, schools, safety, does Mos Def live nearby? That last one was a factor for Adam when he was looking at this one neighborhood in New York. The fact that Mos Def allegedly lived there. I think at the time, he and Erykah Badu might have been together. I did run into Mos Def at the overpriced bodega on the corner and did the creepy thing of, like, seeing him through the window, waiting for him outside, and accosting him the second he came outside and being like, "yo, man. Your album was really significant to me." And he looked terrified. You know, he couldn't wait to get out of there with, like, his $12 mangoes or whatever. This was a Brooklyn neighborhood called Fort Greene. It was the year 2000, and the neighborhood was in the early stages of gentrifying. Adam left his cell number with a bunch of real estate brokers. And Fort Greene was very real estate broker intensive. You know, it's not a big neighborhood. There were possibly more brokers than there were blocks. So I left my phone number with a bunch of these brokers. And I was walking up Fulton Street probably an hour after dropping all these phone numbers off when I got a call from one of these brokers. And she was a British lady. And she started describing to me an apartment. And it had high ceilings and wood floors and lots of natural light. And it sounded great. But the only problem was the apartment was not in Forte Greene. It was in Bed-Stuy, Bedford-Stuyvesant. Bed-Stuy-- further from Manhattan, more crime, less gentrified. For instance, Adam says if you visited both neighborhoods, Fort Greene and Bed-Stuy, and compared what the fake businesses were like that marijuana dealers worked out of-- Like how plausible are they as businesses? You know? So if it's the kind of thing where you walk into a bodega and there's, like, one can of grape soda and a box of baking powder and a shady looking dude behind six inches of reinforced bulletproof glass, then your neighborhood is far from gentrified. Whereas Fort Greene at that point had businesses which I went to because I wanted to actually partake of their legal goods and services and didn't even know that they were weed spots. Like there was this hat shop that I actually bought a hat at. And everybody looked at me like, you knot that's not really a hat shop, right? So that was the level that Fort Greene was at. OK. So transitional. Yes, transitional. But less transitional than Bed-Stuy. So he bought records in Bed-Stuy, he ate dinner in Bed-Stuy, and, as he told the real estate broker, did not want to live in Bed-Stuy. And so I said, "you know, the apartment sounds cool. But I'm going to pass. Bed-Stuy's a little bit Boondocksickle for me. So call me if you get a Fort Greene listing." And very quickly and professionally, she switched gears and started trying to convince me that I should check out the Bed-Stuy apartment. So she said, look, "I don't know what you've heard about Bed-Stuy. But it's really very nice. It's very safe. It's changing very fast. A lot of white people are moving there." And I stopped dead in my tracks, offended and surprised that after about 10 seconds on the phone with me, this woman wanted to have this kind of conspiratorial nudge-nudge-wink-wink conversation as a way of letting me know that Bed-Stuy was safe for people like me. I was mostly offended by it. So I figured that I should end that line of conversation as forcefully as possible and kind of shock her back. So I said, I don't like white people that much, and I'm not trying to live around too many of them. And there was, like, silence on the phone. And then she said something along the lines of, "you-- you don't like white people?" And I was like, "no. You know, I don't hate them or anything. But they walk around like they own the planet. They're really entitled. They don't make particularly good neighbors. So no, I'm not really trying to live around too many of them." And there was more silence on the phone. And then very slowly and deliberately she said, "sir, I'm very sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I can tell from your voice that you're obviously African American." And I cut her off. And I was like, "no, no, no. You got it wrong. I'm white." And then I add something like, "no offense. She says, oh, I'm not offended. I get it. I'm black," which, because of her British accent, hadn't occurred to me. And the next thing I remember about the conversation is basically that the two of us both start laughing because in the space of about a minute we had both made so many assumptions and cycled through so many identities. The absurdity of it just, I think, hit us both at once. I assumed that he was black. Well, does he sound black to you in this recording? Yes, he does. And it's just-- I realize it's the way he spreads his words out for me. After talking to Adam, I got in touch with the real estate broker, Noreen Sumpter. And she remembers this incident the same way he does with one exception. She says she would not have said, "I'm sorry. I did not mean to offend you. Are you African American?" No, I didn't say that. I just directly-- "oh, so you black." Do I sound like I'd be, (AMERICAN ACCENT) "sir, are you sorry? I'm sorry." (DROPS ACCENT) No, I'm not that. I'm like, "oh, really? You don't like white people? Are you black?" She's no longer in real estate these days. She's a life coach. But she says the thing that set Adam off-- the race-baiting, wink, wink, don't-worry-a-lot-of-white-people-are-moving-there-- was not something she said to white clients or to anybody else. She only said it to him because-- I assumed that he was black and he was scared to move into a black neighborhood with black people is why I said it to him. Right? Like, what is this guy? You're a black guy. What are you-- so that's why I said, there's a lot of white people moving there, meaning that you're black. If you're a black man, you should be comfortable in that neighborhood. Like white people aren't scared to live there. Why can't you? Yeah. Like what's going on? What's over there with you why you wouldn't move there? But he wasn't a black man. He was a white guy. I love the efficiency of this story. Like, I like how we all have people in our lives who it takes years to figure, like, oh, I totally misjudged this person. And this is the most efficient version of getting somebody wrong and realizing you've gotten it wrong. Like, you couldn't do it in fewer sentences. Look, I'm the queen of the world. You know what? The people in my building call me Queen Nor, Goddess of the Universe. So that makes me realize that I can solve anything. Anything can be solved through a conversation. I did assume, and he assumed, and we both assumed back and forth. But we resolved it in, like, a heartbeat. So, hey, kudos for us. Sometimes people's answers to questions really surprise me. Well, today on our program, people who are in this same situation, where they realize, oh, no. I thought you were one thing, and I got it wrong. You are not that person. Except in these other cases, they do not have Queen Nor to help them wrap it up so quickly. And so some of these misunderstandings and misperceptions, they drag on for years, with a lot more feelings attached to them. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Stay with us. Act One, "Who's Really On Line Two?" And now, a radio host discovering things about his listeners that he wishes were not true, obviously one of the worst things that could ever happen to a person. I think we can all agree on that. I'm saying this as if this is a problem in my life. I don't-- it's not at all. Anyway, it recently happened to Tony Beam, host of the radio show Christian Worldview Today in South Carolina. Zoe Chace tells the story. Tony's on early mornings, 92.9 FM, 660 AM, weekdays. His show is for and by the evangelical community. Politics, news, a little sports, God-- that's his show. "All right, welcome back. Hour number two of Christian Worldview Today is coming off the shelf, and it's coming straight at you. But just receive it. It's a good thing." Tony and his callers speak the same language. They hate Obamacare, deficit spending. They feel the Christian right gets no respect from the Republican establishment. And when Tony endorses a presidential candidate, enough of his listeners agree with him that candidates seek him out. They come on the air with him. He went with Huckabee in '08, Santorum in 2012. Last spring, Ted Cruz invited Tony and his wife up to DC. He sat them down in a private Washington apartment and made a pitch. He was going to unite the Tea Party, the libertarians, the evangelicals, and win. Tony told me how much he liked him. Not only did he have the principles and convictions that I have, but he had a political strategy that I thought would succeed. And when we walked out of that meeting, my wife, who is not near as involved in politics or fascinated by as I am, she looked at me and she says, you do what you want. I'm voting for that guy. Not long after, he went on the radio and endorsed Cruz, a lifelong evangelical conservative. "I believe he's the right man for the job. I believe he's the right person that's got insider knowledge. But he's an outsider within his own party because he's willing to call out his party. That impresses me." Tony knows this scene-- anti-establishment Christian Republicans in South Carolina. Year after year, he goes to the state political gatherings, the Silver Elephant dinner, Jeff Duncan's Faith in Freedom BBQ. He grew up listening to Ronald Reagan on the radio, sitting in the kitchen with his dad. And he was telling me, you know, this guy has got the answer for the future. That is a real American Republican origin story. It is. It really is. You and your dad in the kitchen, the eggs frying, listening to Ronald Reagan on the radio. I can hear it. And I can actually, I can smell the-- I mean, most people it was bacon and eggs. My dad loved livermush, believe it or not. And he would fry livermush and make like livermush and egg sandwiches. Tony was especially excited this election year. As the establishment candidates, Bush and Scott Walker, flamed out, his guy Ted Cruz was on the rise. It looked like he had a real shot at being the nominee. Obviously, there is also this other candidate in the race-- Donald Trump. But Tony wasn't worried about Trump. He figured Trump does not fit in with people built on livermush and the Bible. When Donald Trump got in the race, I said, pssh. In three weeks, we'll be done here because there's no way that people are going to go chasing after him. Then came the first Republican debate, the one where Megyn Kelly, the Fox News anchor, asked Trump about some stuff he'd said about women. And unlike this week, Trump was there to answer those questions. "You've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. Your Twitter account--" "Only Rosie O'Donnell." "No, it wasn't." I'll point out over this 16 seconds of cheering and applause that this turned out to be a very controversial line of questioning. OK, still going. "Thank you." "For the record, it was well beyond Rosie O'Donnell." "Yes, I'm sure it was." "Your Twitter account has several disparaging comments about women's looks. You once told a contestant on Celebrity Apprentice it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees. Does that sound to you like the temperament of a man we should elect as president?" I thought it was fair game. I mean, this is-- Democrats do pound Republicans with a war on women. And now we've got a guy who's kind of the front-runner who's attacking the way a woman looks and attacking other women by name? Are you kidding me? "And frankly, what I say-- and oftentimes, it's fun. It's kidding. We have a good time. What I say is what I say." I come and crack the microphone after that first debate. And I'm like, [GIGGLING] Trump's done. This is it. He's really stepped in it now. And I'm plastered with people calling me telling me how glad they are the way Trump handled himself and that he won that debate. And I was stunned. I thought I was doing somebody else's talk show, that they had switched frequencies on me and not told me, and that I was actually doing a show from a different location. This is crazy. This is not who we are. And that was just the beginning. "And I've been waiting for years to hear a politician that talks the way Donald Trump talks. Now is he going to deliver? I don't know. But I'm telling you, I'm a Trumpeter. I mean, unless he's a liar, he's saying all the right things." "Yeah." "And whether his conservative credentials are bona fide or not, that's not the point. See, anybody can change. Ronald Reagan did, as we all know." "Alex, Alex. I hate to interrupt a great rant, and that was a great rant. And as far as rants goes, that was right up there. But you said it doesn't-- I don't know if his conservative credentials are true or not. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't?" Calls like these got under Tony's skin real quick. "Donald Trump made a statement a couple of weeks ago that he wants to pursue the families of the--" "Yes, yes." "--of these jihadists." "Yeah, wants to kill them." "And it was sixth-grade outrage. And I can give you examples of two presidents who actually did that. One was the third president of the United States. And the other was the 39th president of the United States." "OK. So you think that's a good idea?" "And by the way, so did Harry Truman when he dropped the atom bombs." "You think it's a good idea? You think it's a good idea. I'm not asking you-- no." "I didn't say it was a good idea, Tony." "Put a stake in the ground, Gene." "But this is warfare. This is what happens." "If you're gonna call and do this, put a stake in the ground. I'm asking you. I'm calling you out. I'm calling you out. Do you want to ban all Muslims from the United States, and do you want to kill all the family members of anybody who's ever been involved in terrorism? Is that what you want? Is that what you want?" "I want--" "No, no no!" Tony's a pastor, a doctor of ministry from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And his big problem with Trump is that he's not a good Christian. He doesn't share the values that govern Tony's entire life. For instance, last summer, an interviewer asked Trump if he'd ever asked God for forgiveness of his sins. And Trump was like, "why should I? I don't make mistakes. I mean, I drink the wine. I eat the cracker." Some people thought it was funny. Tony did not. Given that, nothing drives him crazier than when his listeners try to defend Trump along biblical lines, like when that guy Gene calls in to talk about Trump and the Second Book of Kings. "When I sit here and listen to Trump, I agree with a lot of what he's saying. And I want to remind your audience of a person in the Bible." "Oh, my gosh." "Who took down Jezebel? What was the name--" OK, what Gene is talking about is in the Second Book of Kings, this guy Jehu murdered Queen Jezebel because she had pagan idols around the kingdom. Then he threw her body to the dogs. Jehu was like a warrior against a corrupt culture. "His name was Jehu. Do you remember that?" "I remember. And you think--" "The Book of Kings." "--Donald Trump is Jehu?" "Yes. Yes." "You do?" "Yes. Remember, Jehu was not a righteous man in God's eyes. And God used Jehu to fulfill Elijah's prophecy regarding Jezebel." "But you believe that God-- yeah, whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa, Gene. We have such chaos in this country that we would look to a man like Donald Trump, who has no core value system, to lead us back to the place that we need to be as a country." "I think Trump is gonna realize that he may well have to work with the Congress--" In a recent poll of South Carolina evangelical voters, Trump is leading, eight points ahead of Ted Cruz. Nationally, he's ahead by more than 15% with evangelical voters. Tony is in this very real struggle that I'd say a lot of anti-establishment Republicans are in. There is a part of the Donald Trump thing that appeals to him. Take this moment from the South Carolina Republican debate. "And I can say, oh, I'm not angry. I'm very angry because our country is being run horribly. And I will gladly accept the mantle of anger. Our military is a disaster. Our health care is a horror show. Obamacare, we're gonna repeal it--" I got to admit, when I hear stuff like that, I'm like, "yeah! Go! Just yeah, hit him again, harder!" And then I step back and go, wait a minute. Do I really want him to be president? This is insane because the emotional part of me cannot take control over the thought process that is going to be what carries us in the long run. And that's what scares me about this whole thing. All of this is being wrought out on pure emotion. It's just been building. Obama is getting his way. Nobody's standing against him. He's ruining this country. He doesn't love America. And we don't have people that are pushing back. And it just-- that mindset turns, and people get madder and madder. And I'm afraid we're gonna split the party and be in real trouble. Do you have a specific memory of somebody calling in the show, and you think, oh, wait a minute. This isn't going away. Yeah, Barry. Yeah. He called. He calls my show a lot. And I call him the Trump interpreter. "All right. Barry's on the phone. Hello, Barry." "Hey, Tony. I got a couple questions on the Donald for you." "OK, sure. Go ahead." Barry is an evangelical Christian. He's very strong in his faith. And when he called and was all about Trump, I was like, oh, my gosh. "Now, the pushback that's he's doing against the media, various different reporters, and so forth-- good or bad?" "It's good and bad." "Donald Trump is bullying--" "Bullying." "--the GOP establishment." "Oh. Hm." "Is that a good or bad thing?" "Well, I think it's a good thing for his campaign. And I think it's a good thing for the people who are tired of the GOP establishment going to Washington and doing squat to make changes." "Sounds like you're on the Trump train." "No. I'm not on the Trump train." "Then what's going on?" "I didn't say that he's not doing things that are helpful." "I know. I know." "And I'm saying-- look, what I'm saying is, I don't want to get into all the reasons why I think it's a problem. But anyway, Barry, thanks. We don't have time. We got to take a break. We'll come back. We've got a couple of guests in the studios we want to--" Notice how much Tony and Barry agree on. The media is unfair to their candidates. The Republican establishment dismisses them. But still-- So you've gotten to know Barry. Well, I wouldn't recognize him if he walked in the room. But I've talked to him enough on the air where, over the years-- I mean, he's been calling this show for years. And I felt like I knew him pretty well. But he's gone in a direction that I would have said wouldn't have happened. I thought we agreed that the person that we wanted to lead us would agree with our principles and have that at their core. So you're willing to lay all that aside? Oh, I think he has those principles whether he's a Christian or not. I just raise the white flag and go, line two because I don't know what to do about that. So after months of squabbling with Barry and the other callers over Trump, Tony remembers vividly the moment he was sure the ongoing argument with his listeners would finally end. It was the moment he was sure Trump had lost the evangelical vote. It was when Trump said we needed to ban all Muslims from coming to America. My first thought was, no. That-- no. Somebody's got that messed up. So then I find a video where he actually makes that statement. Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on. And I was horrified. You want to know my initial reaction? I was horrified. I'm thinking to myself, this is so opposed to everything that are my core values. Were you nervous to come in and do the show after that happened because you knew-- No, because I'm an idiot. Because I came in and thought, man, this may help Trump overall. But Christians, they're going to be appalled by this. Barry's on the line. Go ahead, Barry. He didn't say their religious expression. He said Muslims, which-- It's a religion! Their ideology is absolutely a conquering ideology. But-- He's saying Muslims have a conquering ideology. --until we can find out what's going on. So, you know-- OK. Well, why don't we ban Christians? Why don't we-- you know, Christians have in their background an ideological conquering mentality. I mean, you look at that Old Testament, man, you've got the Jews that were taking over the entire country. Christianity rose out of Judaism in the Christian-- now, I'm talking. I'm talking now, Barry. See, this is the way this works. We don't talk at the same time. So we need to be-- what I'm trying to get you to see is that once we start down a road where we tell people that because of their religious expression, we're going to deny them entry into the country, we're setting a precedent. Yeah, I disagree because that's not what he's saying. It's their ideology. It's the connection with terror is what he's talking about. But all Muslims are not terrorist. All Muslims are not terrorist. All Christians don't shoot abortion doctors and bomb abortion clinics. I don't want to get lumped in with them because I'm a Christian any more than there are Muslims that don't want to be lumped into the idea of terrorism because there are radical Islamic extremists who are trying to kill people. Barry, thanks for the call. Robbie, I'm gonna have to hold you. We got to take a break. We'll come back. We'll talk to Robbie. So I went to Barry, in person, to understand, yes, why he loves Trump so much, but really, how he'd strayed so far from Tony. Is it you? Hello, there. How are you? Hi, Barry. This is my son, David. I'm Zoe. It's just, I'm thrilled to meet you. You're like a celebrity to me. Oh, really? I don't understand. How's that? I don't get it. Barry Chisholm, in the flesh. He works 20 minutes away from Tony's radio studio. He runs a small business managing employee benefits. This means he is up close and personal with Obamacare, which he is not a fan of. Barry is what you might have pictured-- hyper, older white guy in a baseball cap. He is indeed an evangelical Christian from Boston. It takes him just a few seconds to wind himself up. Is that part of why you would move down here? Like, it seems like a more friendly environment to evangelicals than Boston is. No, actually. No, I miss being up in Boston because the difference up there is if you're a Christian, you stand out like crazy. If you're a Christian down here, it's a cultural thing. And I like being around people that have strong opinions because it's fun. Because you know what? I know what I believe. And what I believe is not what I made up. It's this guy Jesus Christ who started it. So I'm globbing on to what he taught. So it's fun. I miss being up around people who don't know about Christ and what he taught. So no, I miss that. That's probably the most fun part, is I like to engage people. And I like to turn people on. Hey, go check it out. If you don't believe me, go find out for yourself. That's the journey I had to take. And so no, I would never move down here just because-- So, I mean, also, it sounds like you kind of like living a little bit as a contrarian. Is that fair to say? Yeah, that's real kind of accurate. You know? Yeah, it is kind of accurate, I guess. I mean, yeah. Barry is the guy who loves to stir the pot. Barry is a mischief maker. He is a scamp, kind of like Donald Trump. Tony and Barry, though, they started out this election season in the very same place. Well, I mean, I supported the Huck-- Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum before that, and then held my nose and voted for Mitt Romney. And I way back supported Reagan. So when this came around, and you had not the seven dwarfs, the 14 dwarfs out there, I mean, I just waited to see all the dust settle. One thing about Donald Trump, I said, it will be entertaining if he gets in. It will be fun to watch because he's not a politician. I didn't realize how much fun it would be. But it's gone way beyond my expectations. It's been the most enjoyable election I've ever seen, watching all these people's heads implode. It's been a fun time. It's been fun to watch all the establishments come unhinged because they can't control it. It's fun to watch the liberal media come out with the big hits, the names, and he's this, he's racist, and all that. I just never knew someone could take the heat and just punch back. So it's like, yeah, this is fun. This is different. As for Ted Cruz, Barry says, forget it. He'd be killed in the mainstream media. He saw it with other strong evangelical candidates. They will just make fun of him. But Donald Trump, he'll make fun of the mainstream media. That is such a joy to Barry. By the time the first debate happened-- you know, Megyn Kelly, the Rosie O'Donnell question-- Barry and Tony had completely opposite experiences. Tony's like, are you kidding me about Trump? But that's what Barry says about Megyn Kelly. Megyn Kelly had to spend a lot of time to dig up that little piece, and he made a cavalier joke. Are you kidding me? She was digging for stuff. We've got so politically correct, just like when Donald Trump said about Carly Fiorina's face. Look at that face. Look, Donald Trump-- look, if you're going to be a woman, you're going to get in the thing, then go for it. Don't be, don't be-- he's an equal opportunity basher. He'll bash guys as well as women. Stop with the baby stuff. And the Megyn Kelly thing, it became more about her than-- this is a presidential debate. Didn't he say, blood coming out of her wherever? Oh, that. Oh, that, too. And that-- oh, that was afterwards. Yeah, oh yeah. That was stupidity. I mean, there's no doubt about it. You know, is all this stuff presidential? I don't know. But you know what, this guy's not a politician. Megyn Kelly, the wall, the ban on Muslims, all the stuff that Tony was sure would drive everyone away, Barry loves those things. Barry loves the idea, not necessarily the practice, but the fact of the statement of banning all Muslims. All he's bringing up is do we have a problem? And if we do, can we talk about it? Or are we gonna just, everybody's a bigot now. I mean, that's all. So Donald Trump-- we just want-- it needs to be addressed. What I found out upon meeting Barry is one of the things he loves most about Donald Trump is arguing about Donald Trump. The conversation that is freaking Tony out so much about the state of the country, that conversation itself is the thing that Barry is relishing. And Barry's diabolical about it. Barry has eight sons, all Trump fans, he says. And he's deployed his son David in his pro-Trump battles against Tony. What'll happen is, my dad will get on there. Tony will get all flustered and upset. And every once in a while, if he's having a bad day, he'll cut him off short. So then I call right in and just kind of continue the conversation because he thinks it's a whole 'nother caller or-- It is. It is. But the whole-- so he can't avoid the Trump mindset sometimes. Why do you do that to him? It's just the challenge of it. Because they have the authority to just kick people off and make people feel stupid when they call in. A lot of people be like, well, I don't really like Trump. I'm not a Trump supporter, but, you know, he's pretty good on this issue. And Tony will be just, oh! Jump all over that. I thought the Trump supporters I'd meet in South Carolina would be angry. But a lot of them are like Barry-- angry, but having such a great time. The people I met, they're more happy than angry. Like at this biker rally for Trump. Thanks everybody coming out for this. We're going to line our bikes up facing Market Common. So when he comes through, we're going to be about an eighth mile wide. And he'll be able to see us, see what's going on. If you're a felon or anything, leave your guns behind. You never know. They might have Secret Service there. You got a permit, by all means carry it. That's all I got. Thanks everybody coming out. The rally was held at a biker bar in Myrtle Beach called Suck Bang Blow. It was explained to me that those are the mechanics of a combustion engine. I asked this guy Kool-Aid about Trump-- leather vest and tattoos. So why do you like Trump so much? Well, because, I mean, he's just down to Earth. I know he's kind of loud and obnoxious. But so are all of us bikers. Kool-Aid's never voted in his life. Today, he's throwing a Trump rally to welcome him to town. And he has voter registration cards stacked up at the bar. Steve, he'd never voted before, either. Never ever did I give two craps who ran because I figure we're gonna get screwed anyway. But there's a difference now. When did you register? Three days ago. For Trump? Absolutely. Just figured I got to do it because, you know what? Every little bit helps. My one vote might not be much, but you know what? It might be the one that makes it rock. I went registered last week so I can vote me some Trump. Vote me some Trump? Heck, yeah. We need somebody, or it's going to hell in a hand basket. I knew these guys, first time voters, wouldn't care that they might split the Republican Party. They never felt at home there. But Barry, Tony's radio nemesis/radio frenemy, is different. So I asked him, if you go for Trump, are you going to split the party? Who cares? I don't care. The Republican Party needed to be split a long time ago. They troll the evangelicals. They pandered to the conservatives. And when they get in there, they do what their lobbyists tell them to do. So if the Republican Party splits, so what? All I care about America at the end of the day. Tony, though, really cares. He does not want to lose the election. And he wonders, what does it mean about his listeners if they follow this pied piper? I think that's what's led to my current level of frustration. And I admit to you that it's greater than in the past. And I probably, quite frankly, need to dial it back a little bit because I don't need to be consumed by this. And for the last couple of weeks, I've probably been-- I mean, this has been very heavy on my mind. And then he has this other worry, this other way of thinking about it. This worry is so personal, at first he didn't want to talk about it. I want to tell you something off the record. Oh, OK. Oh. But after we talked a little, he agreed to go back on mic. I mean, there've been times when I've thought about just giving up the radio show because I don't want to be one who fosters the unreasonable level of anger that's out there. Do you think that by giving airtime to some of this stuff-- Well, I have callers who call in that are very angry now. And they express things that-- and I push back. But I just wonder how many people are hearing that and going, he's right. And Dr. Beam needs to get with the program. You know? And so I debate sometimes with myself, am I not doing anything except giving a platform? Look, Jesus Christ, when he walked this earth, condemned the zealots. He condemned the establishment, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, because they were hypocrites. But he also condemned those who wanted to march against Rome in a violent way. That was not the path that Jesus talked about. Jesus was the Prince of Peace. He was a reconciler. I know that's what he's done in my life. And I want to be that to represent him in the world. I don't want to be somebody that pours gas on a fire. I want to be a reconciler who brings peace in a situation where anger seems to be the prevailing thought process. And I don't know how best to do that. But if I can't do it with a microphone, I'd just rather turn it off. It's not Trump that bothers me. What bothers me is that Trump is popular. That story from Zoe Chace, one of the produces of our show. She'll be doing campaign coverage for us all this year. Coming up, mistaking a guy who does exist for one who does not exist. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. This is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. Each week on our program, of course, we choose a theme, bring you different kinds of stories on that theme. Today's show, I Thought I Knew You-- stories of people misperceiving other people. Sometimes it slowly dawns on them that they have it wrong. Sometimes it comes out quickly. We've arrived at Act Two of our program. Act Two, My Little Bruce Dupe. Well, so far on our program, we have focused on people who are misperceived. But they don't want to be misperceived. They're not doing things to create misperceptions. But, of course, sometimes people deliberately mislead other people about who they are. Comedian Jay Larson has this example-- Your cell phone rings. You don't recognize the number. What do you do? Ignore it! Ignore it. Send it to voicemail. Yeah. Not this guy. I answer it. Yeah, exactly. Opportunity, potential, who knows? Who knows what it is? The other day, I was driving down the 405. Traffic. Phone rings. 917, New York. I'm like, ooh, I don't know the number. I hit talk. I go, "hello?" Guy on the other line goes, "hey, Bruce. What's going on?" My name's Jay, not Bruce. So clearly, "I go, nothing much, man. What's going on with you?" And he goes, "I'll tell you what's going on. I just got an email about the budget. It's supposed to be $15,000. Now it's $10,000. I'd like to know what the hell's going on." And I grabbed the steering wheel. It was like, all right. Focus. Focus right now. Your name is Bruce. There's a budget. It's $15,000. Now it's $10,000. No one's happy about it. Just go with this. Go with this. I didn't know much. I only knew what he told me. So I just said it back. And I go, "$10,000? It's supposed to be $15,000!" He goes, "yeah, well, I just got an email, and now it's $10,000." And I go, "hey, I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm on the road right now. I haven't even seen the email." And he goes, "are you behind this? Did you send it out?" Like giving Bruce some attitude, you know what I mean? And I'm like, "no way I am taking that. There's no way." And I go, "listen, bro. The budget was $15,000. We had a couple extra expenditures. It went up to $16,200. I reworked it, got it down to $14,700. We had $300 to play with. I called it $15,000. I sent it out." He goes, "yeah? Well, now it's $10,000!" And I was like, "oh, my God! That worked!" Stay focused. Stay focused I'm not even enjoying it. You know what I mean? Because I can't even laugh. I have to stay-- I'm, like, literally in it. I was just in it. He goes, "did Larry OK this?" Now he's throwing Larry at me. Yeah. So I go, "listen. I took it to Larry. He said it looked fine. But I knew it was my ass on the line, so I ran it by Jennifer just in case. She said it looked good. I sent it out." He goes, "yeah? Well, now it's $10,000!" And I was like, this guy has no idea what's going on over there. He hasn't talked to Larry. He hasn't talked to Jennifer. I just made her up. Clearly, he has not spoken to Bruce. He goes, "listen, man. What are we gonna do about this?" I go, "bro, I'm on the road right now. I haven't even seen the email. Why don't you call Larry, check in with him? See what's going on, give me a call back." Literally like throwing the fishing line out, being like, please say yes because that phone call return is going to be amazing. And he goes, "listen. Why don't we wait till you get home. You check the email. You call Larry. You call me back." I go, "no, no, bro. Larry knows way more about this than I do. Give him a call, call me back." He goes, "OK." Hangs up the phone, to which I explode with euphoria because there's a small business in New York somewhere that's crumbling to the ground over $5,000. No one can find Bruce. No one's talked to Larry. And they don't know who the hell Jennifer is. Excitement. Not even done. I get home. I'm so excited. I call some friends, tell them what happened. I think to myself, you know what? I'm going to save that guy's number, give him a call in a couple days. Check in, touch base. See where we're at. I save the number on my phone under Random Guy. He's a random guy. I don't think about it. A couple days pass. No big deal. Laying on the couch, watching the game. Phone rings, dining room table. Watching the game. Get up, pick up the phone, look down-- Random Guy. And I think to myself, Random Guy? I don't know any Random Guy. Who the hell's Random Guy? And then I was like, oh! Random Guy! Now I'm freaked out. You know what I mean? I'm in my house. They know where I'm at. People's lives have been affected. But this is who I am. You know what I mean? I started this thing. I'm going to see it through the end. That's how I saw this. Put in my ear buds, just get a little distance. Just get some distance, you know I mean? I hit Talk. I go, "hello?" Same guy goes, "hey, Larry, what's going on?" Now he's calling me Larry. He knows what's up. But I'm not gonna cave. You know what I mean? And I go, "nothing much, man. What's going on with you?" And he goes, "listen, I got us on conference call with Jenelle and Marie." Like I'm backing down from Jenelle and Marie. So I go, uh, "hey ladies. Welcome to the call--" as if to say, welcome to the show. Here we go. How long are we going to lie for? How long do you want me to lie? Because I'm going to go all the way. Marie, she takes the lead. She goes, "hey, Larry. What time is it where you are?" And I look at the clock, and it's 5:30. And they're a New York company. So I go "8:30. It's 8:30." Like, sprinkling more lies and, like, I can fool them. I can fool them. She goes, "really? What's the weather like?" And I go, "weather's nice. Weather is nice." She goes, "really? This doesn't sound like Larry." And I go, "oh, yeah? Who's it sound like?" And the guy who called both times, he chirps in. He's like, "sounds like Bruce! Sounds like Bruce!" Like he's gonna blow this case wide open. And I go, "guys, this isn't Larry and this isn't Bruce." And she goes, "who is this?" And I was like, "I'm just some dude who had nothing better to do than to mess with you guys." Marie did not like that. She got pissed. She started yelling at me. She's like, "we're a small business trying!" I'm like, "oh, I know." She's like, "you think this is a joke?" And I was like, "well, a little bit." She goes, "let me ask you something." I go, "no, you let me ask you something!" And she goes, "what?" And I go, "where we at with the budget?" Jay Larson, recorded at the Laugh Factory in Los Angeles. Amazing, right? His website-- jaylarsoncomedy.com. Act Three, A Light From the Other Side. I think a lot of kids would be really shocked-- I think the right word is shocked-- at how well their teachers understand them, when teachers are good. Good teachers can talk to you forever about this kid or that kid in their class, their good qualities, their bad qualities. And when you're a student, and there's a teacher you respect, and the teacher thinks badly of you, that is just like a horrible feeling that you may or may not get to correct. Eve Abrams tells this story. I taught elementary school for 10 years in New York City at this place called The Neighborhood School. It was one of those schools where students call teachers by their first names and where teachers really get to know their students well-- their families, their strengths, their dramas. But sometimes, one kid stands out. This is a story about one of those kids and his friend and his teacher. Sofia is the teacher and also a friend of mine. Lilly was our student years ago. She's 16 now. And Lilly's classmate Robert was our student, too. But he's dead, so I'll let Lilly tell you about him. I really had a hard time telling people who had died for a while because I didn't want to say friend. And I didn't want to say best friend because that makes it seem like, my best friend, like-- you know what I mean? And anyone can say that they were his best friend. I mean, he lived so close to me, so we'd hang out 24/7. We talked about everything. In our school, everyone was pretty quiet and good. And, like, I don't know. To me, he just seemed like he was just different, and he was fun. And everyone else was boring. Teachers never liked him. He was probably a little bit rude. Like, he didn't do his homework. That was a big thing because in the Neighborhood School, everyone was like, "oh, got to do your homework. Got to do your homework, or you're not going to go out for recess" and all this stuff. I mean, whatever. He'd be, like, never going out for recess because he never did his homework. Robert didn't defer to adults. And other kids were drawn to that. But he was also sort of hapless. He was the kind of kid who when he cut school got caught. He got kicked out of middle school, which was always, like, really weird to me because there were so many kids that were so much worse. I mean, there was kids that came in that school like once a week at 10 o'clock and grabbed a girl and left. I had a crush on him, like, the second I saw him. Fifth grade was the big year that I really had a big crush on him. It was just like, oh, my god. I love you. He one time left me flowers at my door-- it was my birthday-- and knocked on the door and ran away. And so I opened the door, and there was flowers. And I was just like, oh, my god. Oh, my god. He loves me! Like, flowers. And so I picked it up. And there was a note. And it said from Robert to Lilly. Happy birthday. PS, don't get happy, as in, like, whatever. Don't get happy. Don't think I like you because I'm doing this. Don't get happy. I was like, but I am happy 'cause you left me flowers. I realized it's actually because I liked him so much as a friend. And I never really had somebody that was a boy that I like so much as a friend. So I figured I must be in love with him or I must have the-- but, you know, it's also like I just actually always really liked him as a person. That's how Lilly saw Robert. Sofia saw him differently. After he was in my class, Robert moved on to Sofia's class right next door. And a lot of times, I'd see and hear them out in the hall together. Mostly, I'd hear Sofia. She would lecture Robert about homework and effort and attitude, and her voice got really loud and annoyed. While Sofia lectured, Robert just stood there. Rolling his eyes. I mean, it was more a physical manifestation. Just kind of listening to me, but not really listening, kind of looking off in the distance, head was at a tilt, arms crossed, kind of waiting for the episode to end. Sofia had a harder time with Robert than I did. He was older by the time she taught him, but his reading wasn't much better. And he still struggled with his schoolwork. He'd also gotten really good at deflecting all of the things that teachers would try-- ordering, cajoling, tricking. Sofia would see Robert around the neighborhood after school, hanging out with older boys, doing nothing much. And it frustrated her to no end that this smart, charming kid seemed headed for a lifetime of dead-end jobs and disappointments. At one point, when I was getting near the end of my rope, I talked to his family about making him stay after school in the classroom just so he can get his homework done. And I think we did it for like a week or two. And I don't think it was very successful. It wasn't a habit he could replicate at home. Incidents between Sofia and Robert piled up, and the year ended badly between them. Someone wrote an obscenity about Sofia on the school wall, up high where only a tall kid could write. And our principal was convinced it was Robert. He ended up being banned from the big end-of-the-year party. When Robert didn't show up at graduation, other kids at the school, including Lilly, blamed Sofia, even though Sofia had nothing to do with it. Not going had been Robert's decision. Mostly, Sofia felt she'd done the best that she could with Robert. But she wasn't sure. She felt bad when she thought about him-- bad for not reaching him, bad for having been hard on him. And for the next few years, she dreaded seeing Robert around the neighborhood, especially with other kids she knew, like Lilly. And then one day, Sofia heard Robert was dead, stabbed to death for reasons no one knows even today. He had just turned 16 two weeks before. After Robert was killed, I had this nightmare. I dreamt that, I don't know, two or three of the girls in that class were really upset with me. And they were talking about the time when I had asked Robert to stay after school and work on his homework. One of the girls had accused me of preventing him from joining a basketball league. And she said that because I didn't let him do that and because I made him stay after school to work on his homework, he didn't get a chance to make better friends and do something that was better for him and more productive. And I really felt like maybe they have something there. If nothing else had happened, Robert would have stayed like that in Sofia's head for years, a kid she always had regrets about, always wished she'd done a better job with. But about six weeks after Robert died, Lilly came back to her old elementary school and showed up in Sofia's classroom out of the blue. And she did something none of our students had ever done. I was surprised to see her, of all people, in my room, in my class, visiting me. And then she said, well, I wanted to give you this. And she handed me a note that she'd written. And then she left. And then when I read the note, I couldn't believe-- I just couldn't believe it. I had to read the letter over again. I keep it in my wallet. I wanted to frame it, but sometimes I feel like I just need to read that letter again, just to remind me. Would you mind getting it now? Sure, I'll read it. Dear Sofia, This is a letter of appreciation to you from me and Rob. Thank you very much for coming to Rob's wake. I know it would have meant so much to him to see how many people showed up. In the past three years-- well, four years-- since me and Rob left the Neighborhood School, we have been best friends, together every day. I just wanted to let you know how much Rob appreciated what you did for him as a teacher. Whenever we would talk about the past, he said that he understood everything you did for him and that he was grateful for it. He showed me that people care for you. That's why sometimes they are harsh. For that reason, I thank you for teaching it to him. Rob always liked when people showed him they cared. He cared for you very much. Hope to see you soon. Lilly Torres. Lilly wrote the note to Sofia on an impulse while she was grieving. She wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do, or if it was weird, or even if Robert would approve. But before she could talk herself out of it, she sat down at her kitchen counter and wrote it on a pink Post-it. I think the thing is, I really wanted people to know that he was a really great person. I mean, you know, teachers were just always not liking him. And I just maybe thought, yeah, maybe even if one teacher that he had knew that he liked them or that-- you know, not to change his reputation with every teacher that he ever had. But I was just trying to take a little bit of that off of his name because I don't think he really deserved any bad at all. He was so mature about that whole thing about her. And I wasn't at all. And I wanted-- I thought maybe by showing her that that she would know that he actually turned out pretty well. He said, "I'm not mad because I think that she was trying to do the best thing that she could for me." Because we were talking about Sofia. I was just kind of like, "she didn't know how to handle you." And he was like, "what are you talking about, she didn't know how to handle me? I was bad. And she was just trying to help me." And he said that he was thankful that she took the time out to even care about him, even if it was yelling or whatever it was. He said that it showed him that she cared. Sofia never wrote back to Lilly. She'd wanted to find the perfect way to thank her, but she couldn't decide what to say. And then she figured too much time had passed. Though Lilly doesn't see it that way. It's fine if she doesn't write me back or if she does. I don't think it's ever too late. You just never know what people need to know. Until I spoke to her, Lilly had no idea how much her note had meant to Sofia, that Sofia kept the note in her wallet, that it had lifted away years of guilt. For Lilly, the note was about saving Robert, the part of him that was left in the world. She hadn't realized that it would also rescue Sofia. Eve Abrams. That's actually a story that we first broadcast eight years ago. Sofia is still a teacher at the same school. Lilly, the 16-year-old, now has a master's in music business and works at Electric Lady Studios. Act Four. OK, so our theme today is I Thought I Knew You. And Act Four of our show today is titled I Thought I Knew U2. There's this podcast about U2, the band U2, that's done by Adam Scott from Parks and Rec and Scott Aukerman, who you may know from Comedy Bang Bang! And, you know, they're really into U2, as you would expect from people who are making a podcast about U2. So they sit and they talk about the band, and they break down their albums, that kind of thing. And they did this thing not long ago where into this den of intense U2 fandom, they brought somebody who knows nothing about U2, a comedian named Todd Glass, who also has his own podcast. No relation to me, by the way. And what happens is just this very fun to listen to matter-antimatter collision. Todd Glass explains that he doesn't know really much about music, about any band. And let's just pick it up from there. U2 I know-- here's when it comes into the part I don't know. The lead singer gets-- of U2, what is his name? We're not going to tell you. He gets teased a lot for taking himself too seriously. Like, he's in the world hunger-- Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not going to tell you anything. I want to hear everything you know about U2. Well, I know that, oh, there's so much right on the-- there's a song about, about, uh-- isn't there a song that he did for some big, like, event to raise money for some-- like it was like really-- I'm sure there's a lot of songs. But this was written for one thing particular. No? No. I don't know. I'm just wondering what you know. Goddammit, can't you give me his first name? I'm picturing him with his big glasses. And he has his hair sort of thinning up top. What else about U2? What else do you know about U2? Life experiences? Anything. I just know he wears those-- Any contact you-- Songs? Big glasses. No, I don't-- if you told me a song, I would genuinely, like, as it's coming out your mouth. One of those things. I'd be like, oh, yeah! So that's what you know. You could not even tell us one name of one song. No. But if you played songs-- Can I play something? I would know if you played something. But seriously, don't tell me if it's going to be it or not. Don't just play his song. I'll tell you if it's his song or not in a heartbeat, I bet. OK. So I'll play a song. And I'll know if it's his song or not, in a heartbeat, I would imagine. Maybe I'm wrong. OK. So I'm going to play a song. You tell me if this is a U2 song sung by Bono. OK. And I'm gonna-- just so you know, I think I could know pretty quick. No. It doesn't have enough soul. Would I be right to say that? You are. That was Gerry Rafferty, "Baker Street." Yeah. All right. Well, the next one is gonna be him probably. All right. Here we go. Ready? No. No. You're right. This is Steely Dan, "Hey Nineteen." All right. One of these is gonna be U2. All right. You ready? Uh-huh. I'm gonna say no. You are right. That is Weezer, "Buddy Holly." This is one of the greatest moments of my life, just listening to this. All right. Ready? All right. Here we go. At this point, it's got to be it. Yes. No. Wait. Hold on, hold on, hold on! OK. Don't-- let me answer. This is I'm older, but yes. It's an older work of his, but yes. Incorrect. This is Peter Gabriel, "Sledgehammer." Ah, [BLEEP]. I knew it wasn't it, but here's what happened-- my instincts where that it wasn't it. But I thought, well, how many will he play before it's it? So I said, don't trust your instincts. Can I just play you a song? Well, yeah. Finally, at this point, I think it would be better for me. All right. I'm trying to think of what song you would know. I'm going to look away. You decide. All right. OK. OK. Here's-- all right. This is-- OK. I think this is the song that you would know. Hold on. No, this isn't him. No. This is him. No it isn't. Oh. I'm pretty sure this is him. This is definitely him. This isn't him? All right, look. All right. Scott. Yes. No bull [BLEEP]. Play the song. Look me in the eye, and play a real song. And stop [BLEEP] around here. All right. I got to find it. I'll be able to tell. I got to find it. Just play the song. Seriously. OK. Uh-- Scott, look me in the eye! I am looking you in the eye, yes. Let me just hear a YouTube-- a U2 song. All right. Here we go. This is U2. I'll recognize it. This is probably U2's most famous song, I would say, out of all of them. Yeah. Don't play something new. Play-- I knew this was them. OK. Now really play their song. OK. Here's the real-- Now I really do want to hear it. Oh, it's connecting. All right. All right. Here's a new song. Is this U2? Yes. I know this song. Jesus Christ, you know how exhausted I am? Yeah, I would imagine. Oh, that was fun. I'm literally out of breath. I could have done that forever, though. Just listened to-- I loved it. Adam Scott, Scott Aukerman, and Todd Glass from the podcast You Talkin' U2 to Me? Full episodes at earwolf.com. Our program was produced today by Jonathan Menjivar and myself with Zoe Chace, Sean Cole, Neil Drumming, Stephanie Foo, Chana Joffe-Walt, Miki Meek, Robyn Semien, Alissa Shipp, Lilly Sullivan, and Nancy Updike. Our senior producer is Brian Reed. Our editor is Joel Lovell. Julie Snyder is our editorial consultant. Our technical director is Matt Tierney. Research help from Christopher Swetala. Production help from Lyra Smith. Seth Lind is our operations director. Emily Condon's our production manager. Elise Bergerson's our business operations manager. Elna Baker scouts stories for the show. Kimberly Henderson is our office coordinator. Music help today from Damien Gray and from Rob Geddis. Adam Mansbach, who told the story about the real estate agent at the beginning of the program, is the author of several books, including Go the [BLEEP] to Sleep. Our website, thisamericanlife.org. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Torey Malatia. He was helping me move and swiped one of my old photo albums. Kept it months. Finally, just this week, he gave it back to me and apologized. Yo man, your album was really significant to me. I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life.